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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#18881 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 09:35

Saying that the 3.5 trillion plan has no chance of passing is something of an exaggeration. They need to convince two Senators, both of whom are nominally Democrats (Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema). The package includes things that are really important to Democrats’ re-election chances, to the country, or to the world (child tax credit extension, Medicare covering vision and dental, climate change prevention and mitigation). This bill is also a big part of Biden’s agenda and failing on these issues now when they control Congress and the presidency will already make Democrats look pretty bad. It seems worth the effort of trying to pressure the two recalcitrant Democratic Senators rather than just give them what they seem to want (the bipartisan roads-and-bridges only bill). They haven’t even stated specific objections beyond the overall price tag (and it’s actually paid for, not to mention all the individual provisions are quite popular even in conservative areas like West Virginia).
Adam W. Meyerson
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#18882 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 09:51

View Postawm, on 2021-October-01, 09:35, said:

Saying that the 3.5 trillion plan has no chance of passing is something of an exaggeration. They need to convince two Senators, both of whom are nominally Democrats (Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema). The package includes things that are really important to Democrats' re-election chances, to the country, or to the world (child tax credit extension, Medicare covering vision and dental, climate change prevention and mitigation). This bill is also a big part of Biden's agenda and failing on these issues now when they control Congress and the presidency will already make Democrats look pretty bad. It seems worth the effort of trying to pressure the two recalcitrant Democratic Senators rather than just give them what they seem to want (the bipartisan roads-and-bridges only bill). They haven't even stated specific objections beyond the overall price tag (and it's actually paid for, not to mention all the individual provisions are quite popular even in conservative areas like West Virginia).


Perhaps so. I am not sure anyone knows just what is and what isn't in it. Sure it's out there, but it's not a short story. Anyway, here are some thoughts from someone who I think attempts to be accurate.

https://www.washingt...-things-poorly/

I am not prepared to debate her assessment of the contents.

Anyway, if the bill can pass on its own, that would be a good route to take.
Ken
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#18883 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 12:34

View Postawm, on 2021-October-01, 09:35, said:

Saying that the 3.5 trillion plan has no chance of passing is something of an exaggeration.


The 3.5 trillion plan has an infinitesimally small chance of passing.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#18884 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 12:36

View Posty66, on 2021-October-01, 12:34, said:

The 3.5 trillion plan has an infinitesimally small chance of passing.


If that is accurate, everyone left in the U.S. better practice the Fascist salute because the House and the Senate are gone.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18885 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 12:57

View Posty66, on 2021-October-01, 12:34, said:

The 3.5 trillion plan has an infinitesimally small chance of passing.


I agree that it won’t pass “as-is.” But if the Democrats really can’t pass an extension of the child tax credit and some programs to fight climate change, it’s a pretty sad statement in the party and perhaps they deserve to be voted out of power in 2022. There’s a lot of room for compromise on this plan and they ought to be able to pass something.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#18886 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 13:45

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-October-01, 12:36, said:

If that is accurate, everyone left in the U.S. better practice the Fascist salute because the House and the Senate are gone.


Huh? Other expressed views are it maybe it can perhaps pass, nobody says surely pass, with enough changes, or that it has an infinitesimal chance in its current form, or (my view) no chance in hell of passing in anything recognizable as what it is now) and you are comparing failure to pass it as a Nazi takeover? Would you agree that your view, assuming I have correctly understood it, is not widely shared?

I favor getting something done, as good a bill as we can reasonably expect to pass. And then the Dems take credit for what they have accomplished and then move on to hopefully accomplish more. It's the way I have always expected things to go.
Quite possibly more can be done, I hope so.

I guess I could repeat my earlier remark that I am probably a hard sell for radical notions. Anyway, I do not expect the 3.5 to pass and I am not practicing a Nazi salute. Or any salute.
Ken
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#18887 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 14:15

SHOCK POLL: Majority of Trump Voters Now in Favor of Seceding from the Union

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A shocking new poll from the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia reveals that over half of Trump voters polled, and 41% of Biden voters, are in favor of blue and/or red states seceding from the union. Yeah, it’s gotten that bad.


I don't see why the article's author thinks this poll is shocking. I have been advocating that Red America secede from the USA for years. Many red state politicians have run the idea of seceding up the flagpole for years. What's shocking to me is that the numbers for letting Red America secede are so low.
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#18888 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 14:51

View Postjohnu, on 2021-October-01, 14:15, said:

SHOCK POLL: Majority of Trump Voters Now in Favor of Seceding from the Union



I don't see why the article's author thinks this poll is shocking. I have been advocating that Red America secede from the USA for years. Many red state politicians have run the idea of seceding up the flagpole for years. What's shocking to me is that the numbers for letting Red America secede are so low.


The reason the polling is so low to allow them to secede is that most want to force them to secede - of course, after they have done their 20-year stretches for insurrection.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18889 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 14:54

So 41% of Biden voters and 53% of Trump voters think it is time to split the country. It would have to be a three way split. Those of us who favor working together appear to be a bit over 50%, so we would get our half (we choose first since we are the majority), and the splitting Ds and the splitting Rs could divide up the other half.

The details could be worked out at the corner bar after a few drinks.
Ken
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#18890 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 16:02

You hate to see it.

Alex Jones must pay damages to Sandy Hook families after calling shooting a ‘giant hoax,’ judge rules

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Alex Jones, the right-wing conspiracy theorist and founder of Infowars, is responsible for all damages in two lawsuits stemming from his false claims that the Sandy Hook school shooting was a “giant hoax,” a judge ruled this week.

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A jury is expected to decide the amount Jones owes the families in the two lawsuits.

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#18891 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 16:59

View Postkenberg, on 2021-October-01, 14:54, said:

So 41% of Biden voters and 53% of Trump voters think it is time to split the country. It would have to be a three way split. Those of us who favor working together appear to be a bit over 50%, so we would get our half (we choose first since we are the majority), and the splitting Ds and the splitting Rs could divide up the other half.

The details could be worked out at the corner bar after a few drinks.


Perhaps what is needed is new political parties - perhaps Muggles and Death Eaters?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18892 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 18:02

The findings may be even more disturbing than the headline.
One reason why respondents may not be in favour of splitting into two countries is that they believe that they ought to be united under their way of governance and that the people that disagree with their worldview are simply occupying space that doesn't belong to them.

This attitude goes back further than the crusades.
Do you think that the Taliban are in favour of secession? No, they have a very firm view about the right, true and proper way that their ancient lands should be governed. They have no tolerance for ambiguity in this regard.

How about the person sleeping rough on the streets of New York in front of Trump Towers?
When asked to secede from the pavement and occupy some other spot they would aver that the position that they occupy is rightfully theirs: other people can go elsewhere.

Hollywood reflects this prevailing worldview. It is not entertainment it is a reflection of the conscious real beliefs of the people willing to pay for its product.
There are two extremely popular 'fictional' figures in the world.
One is the guy in the red cape sent by his father to save the people of earth - sound familiar?
The other is termed 'the lone moral agent'; Shane, the Equalizer, Batman. There is nothing intrinsically 'super' about these people, but they know the difference between right and wrong.
A problem that has baffled philosophers for centuries but which everyone knows the answer to.

The crisis facing the USA is nothing new. It's as old as humanity. Put two people in a room and they'll fight over who gets to stand closest to the door.
Then they'll run simulations about it and observe how animals decide who gets to sit closest to the door.
If people can get excited about how far they can hit a ball with a stick, imagine how excited they get when money is involved.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18893 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 18:34

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-30, 20:28, said:


I would personally suggest in addition the creation of a national voting database if certain parties have doubts about double-voting across state lines. This makes more sense than the current voluntary opt-in state-level system. It also seems obvious that certain minimum standards should be created federally while still giving states some degree of leeway in how they choose to hold their elections to best suit the local conditions.

As Tip O'Neill said, "All politics are local." If you wish to succumb to the D. C. bourgeois that's your business and I respect your opinion. I don't. And I hope you respect my opinion.

#18894 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 19:32

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-October-01, 16:59, said:

Perhaps what is needed is new political parties - perhaps Muggles and Death Eaters?



Sounds good. I need to relax a bit.
Ken
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#18895 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 20:15

As mentioned above, I need to relax a bit, and that means posting less. We'll see how it goes. I didn't want to just disappear but I think I need a break.
Ken
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#18896 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-01, 20:22

View Postkenberg, on 2021-October-01, 20:15, said:

As mentioned above, I need to relax a bit, and that means posting less. We'll see how it goes. I didn't want to just disappear but I think I need a break.

Been there myself. A nice Chianti seems to help.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18897 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 00:32

View PostChas_P, on 2021-October-01, 18:34, said:

As Tip O'Neill said, "All politics are local." If you wish to succumb to the D. C. bourgeois that's your business and I respect your opinion. I don't. And I hope you respect my opinion.


The problem with this attitude is holding it in combination with wanting strict voter ID. Most countries in Europe have a voter ID requirement, but they also have national ID cards that are routinely issued (for free) to all citizens. The standard form of identification in the US is the driver's license, but there are plenty of (mostly poorer, mostly city-dwelling) Americans who don't have one, and obtaining one actually requires a significant investment of time and money (in addition to the fees for the license itself, you need to pass a test which probably requires taking a course which also costs money, and you need to have a car at least on the day of the exam). It's a hefty cost for a low-income person who plans never to drive (and one which people with significant health issues may simply not be able to pass). Of course, the courts have ruled that states demanding identification to vote must supply a free identification for valid voters (otherwise it becomes a poll tax), but in practice getting one of these ID cards can also be quite difficult, requiring lots of phone calls to verify availability, obtaining transportation to a relatively distant issuing location, and waiting there for a significant length of time during a business day. These are all significant obstacles to a low-income working or disabled person.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#18898 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 04:56

View PostChas_P, on 2021-October-01, 18:34, said:

If you wish to succumb to the D. C. bourgeois that's your business and I respect your opinion. I don't. And I hope you respect my opinion.


Aw, the racist wants to disenfranchise blacks AND have the rest of us respect his opinions...
Alderaan delenda est
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#18899 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 04:56

View PostChas_P, on 2021-October-01, 18:34, said:

If you wish to succumb to the D. C. bourgeois that's your business and I respect your opinion. I don't. And I hope you respect my opinion.


Aw, the racist wants to disenfranchise blacks AND have the rest of us respect his opinions...
Alderaan delenda est
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#18900 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-02, 07:51

It's funny how quickly the "state rights"-type argument that depends on local authority is abandoned when the shoe is on the other foot and the power of the state is being challenged by a genuine local authority, a county, a city, or a school district. (See Florida and Ron DeSantis)

The secret message hidden inside the argument is that the only people worthy to rule are those who look, think, and sound just like me - which probably explains the inbreeding - and everyone looks the same when the hood is on. And the people who follow this code are too stupid to realize that their heroes don't really think the same way but pretend to because it's so easy to dupe the gullible idiots by pretending to be an idiot, too. (Again, see Florida and Ron DeSantis)
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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