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How Effective Is A Weak Two Diamonds Bid?

#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 13:16

Whilst playing at home with a few friends this weekend, I have again noticed (in a session of about 30 boards) that the Weak Two in (6 card suit, about 6-10 points) is not as effective as a weak two in or .

It is something I have thought about previously, as it easier to overcall 2 than a weak two in s or s.

It is interesting to note that whilst European players I find use the 2 bid to cover a multitude of hands, from Acol strong two bids, Benji, Flannery or Multi 2, American players playing 2/1 or SAYC tend to keep the 2 as weak.

Is it such an effective weapon in a bridge player's armoury given its low pre-emptive level? I tried comparing it to a weak NT bid (12-14) which, I feel, has more of a pre-emptive impact than a weak 2 even though they are different types of hands.

Your comments as always would be appreciated. Thank you.
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#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 13:40

Just to mention that weak 2 in H and S are not equally pre-emptive as each other either. Just as weak 2 major is more pre-emptive than weak 2D, so a weak 2S is more pre-emptive than a weak 2H.

And however short on pre-emption the 2D bid might be, it is still more pre-emptive than passing. As well as having some lead direction benefits. Furthermore, the effective pre-emption may come when responder is able to raise.

All that said, with a non-pickup partner I agree that there are better uses to put to 2D (and perhaps 2M). With a pickup, keep it simple.
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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 14:10

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-23, 13:16, said:

Is it such an effective weapon in a bridge player's armoury given its low pre-emptive level?

View Post1eyedjack, on 2017-April-23, 13:40, said:

And however short on pre-emption the 2D bid might be, it is still more pre-emptive than passing.

How preemptive a call is also depends on what it enables partner to do. As an extreme example, I play (sadly only 4-handedly so far) a pass opening in 1st seat NV that promises 2+ cards in every suit. Then partner can treat it like a 0-10 NT (or 0NT opening?!?) and go berzerk in 3rd seat.
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#4 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 15:26

One way* of looking at it is that after 2D, opps need to find two different major suit fits, while after 2H/2S they can concentrate on just one. That makes it the hardest to defend against.

*-not the only way, but I'll just put this side of the argument here.
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#5 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 17:13

View Postgwnn, on 2017-April-23, 15:26, said:

One way* of looking at it is that after 2D, opps need to find two different major suit fits, while after 2H/2S they can concentrate on just one. That makes it the hardest to defend against.


Yes, it is said by some that 2D is at least as effective as 2H.
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 17:33

I quite like the weak 2, and play it with my regular partners. I will agree to Multi or even Benji, if that is what a casual partner wants. Flannery, by the way, is rarely played outside the US.
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#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 17:56

It is my experience that the weak 2opening bid is quite effective. Even in top flight competition, opps seem to have trouble dealing with any preemptive action.
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#8 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 18:47

According to the stats it generates on average over 2 imps per boards or 58% when it's employed.
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#9 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 20:52

View Postwank, on 2017-April-23, 18:47, said:

According to the stats it generates on average over 2 imps per boards or 58% when it's employed.


That's an interesting statistic. Thank you. So maybe it is more effective than a Multi 2 - which personally I find one of the most awkward bids to counter.
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 21:07

View PostFelicityR, on 2017-April-23, 20:52, said:

That's an interesting statistic. Thank you. So maybe it is more effective than a Multi 2 - which personally I find one of the most awkward bids to counter.


There are several good defenses out there, which will work most of the time. No methods offer a 100% guarantee against preempts.

I think, perhaps w*nk has some statistics, that the Multi is a loser when it is actually opened.
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 21:07

Please delete dup
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#12 User is offline   Nabooba 

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Posted 2017-April-23, 23:40

You need to look at how it fits into your system. There are statistics that show 2D is effective. However if you use 2D as a Multi you can use 2M as something else, for example 5M/5m. The best 2D bid is Wilkosz - look at Chris Ryall's website for statistics and a good debate on Wilkosz. Using this you can retain you 2M as weak 2 bids. Unfortunately Wilkosz is regarded as a Brown Sticker convention.
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#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 00:43

It all depends upon the ability of your opponents to cater for it.I have personally found that the precision 2D openings which guarantees support for all three remaining suits and 11/15 HCP is a little better weapon.When playing SAYC or standard system slowly 2D multi is gaining popularity and some have found that 2D Flannery is also worthwhile consideration.but not at all popular as pointed out by others.Expert opponents have no difficulty in catering to all these varieties of 2D openings.
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#14 User is offline   myxxin 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 01:20

i open weak 2 d usually with 3 d
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 02:33

We find a weak 2 the most effective of our bids and open particularly weak and short examples. The problem it causes is that say you're 4234 either too weak for your NT overcall range or without a stop, now what ? (this is basically Gwnn's point)
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#16 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 02:37

View PostNabooba, on 2017-April-23, 23:40, said:

You need to look at how it fits into your system. There are statistics that show 2D is effective. However if you use 2D as a Multi you can use 2M as something else, for example 5M/5m. The best 2D bid is Wilkosz - look at Chris Ryall's website for statistics and a good debate on Wilkosz. Using this you can retain you 2M as weak 2 bids. Unfortunately Wilkosz is regarded as a Brown Sticker convention.


Wilkosz (for those who don't know) swaps the meanings of 2D and 2M in a multi-two. One of the reasons Wilkosz is so much better is that you get to retain weak twos in both majors, which gives the opponents fewer chances to interfere with moderate hands. So they have to commit on a wider range, which helps our sides. It also gives us the chance to compete with all those two-suiters that people playing weak twos have to decide whether or not to pass.

The downside is giving up the weak 2, but we simply tend to open those hands 3D.

Defending against it isn't all that difficult - in fact we simply suggest to opponents that haven't seen it to use whatever they use against a multi two. This suggestion has flummoxed exactly nobody, from novice players upwards. In fact most people here in Australia don't even care what it actually shows since they see things like this - and much stranger - all the time.
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#17 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 02:41

View Postwank, on 2017-April-23, 18:47, said:

According to the stats it generates on average over 2 imps per boards or 58% when it's employed.


That seems like a good use of the bid, but I am curious about putting it in context. Does the data suggest how well these hands would fare if opened 3D instead, thus freeing up the bid for another use? How do other 2D openings fare? Or does the aggregation of the individual data points become too complex to full compare the various options?

I remember a study that suggests Wilkosz was about +3 imps/board, but that it was likely exaggerated because people were unfamiliar with it at the time.
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#18 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 03:59

Once again thank you for all your replies. I admit I haven't heard of the Wilkosz convention. I'm still learning....
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#19 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 04:31

I like playing 2d as weak imo its very underrated
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#20 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-April-24, 08:39

FelicityR said:

4999' post='920678']
Whilst playing at home with a few friends this weekend, I have again noticed (in a session of about 30 boards) that the Weak Two in (6 card suit, about 6-10 points) is not as effective as a weak two in or .

It is something I have thought about previously, as it easier to overcall 2 than a weak two in s or s.

It is interesting to note that whilst European players I find use the 2 bid to cover a multitude of hands, from Acol strong two bids, Benji, Flannery or Multi 2, American players playing 2/1 or SAYC tend to keep the 2 as weak.

Is it such an effective weapon in a bridge player's armoury given its low pre-emptive level? I tried comparing it to a weak NT bid (12-14) which, I feel, has more of a pre-emptive impact than a weak 2 even though they are different types of hands.

Your comments as always would be appreciated. Thank you.

Depending on the quality of the diamond suit I would open either 2 or 3 HoldingAQxxxxxx I would open 2
However with something like KQ10985432 I would be more inclined to open 3 The vulnerability would also have
an influence on my decision.
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