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ChCh's clever chat Law 73?

#61 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 12:19

There is no "prosecutor" in a bridge ruling, or in a committee ruling. It's not an adversarial process.
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#62 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 14:19

in committee, it is at least partially adversarial. Two sides, with the director providing the facts-as-determined, ruling and reason as a "neutral" party.

But Lamford is saying "if he hadn't convicted himself, there's be no way to prove it"; and I'm saying "don't have to, just have to believe that something shady is going on more than 'seriously I really did take that long to find even a makes on misbid line'." And members of ACs, whether they're Director Panels as in the ACBL or high level players in other places, have very good BS detectors from training and experience.
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#63 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2021-July-25, 07:54

View Postmycroft, on 2021-July-14, 14:19, said:

And members of ACs, whether they're Director Panels as in the ACBL or high level players in other places, have very good BS detectors from training and experience.

But nowhere near as skilled as Charlie the Chimp who would say, "Hey, I answered a question from the TD truthfully. I was in a 0% contract and took five minutes finding my only chance. I made the contract. What do you want from my life?"

And my opinion as OP narrator is irrelevant and inadmissible.
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#64 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 09:16

obviously. Nowhere near as skilled as someone who says "you have to believe me. I promise, I'm telling the truth."

"Hey, I answered a question from the C&E committee truthfully. We may play in the same house, right next to each other, but we never say anything until after the hand or look at partner's screen."
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#65 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 11:14

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-July-07, 05:35, said:

It doesn't matter what the player says.

View Postpran, on 2021-July-07, 07:49, said:

Scaring. That was the typical culture in (for instance) Nazi Germany, I hoped never to experience it again.
IMO it does matter what the players say. But Pilowsky is still right. Bridge-law seems unnecessarily dependent on interpretation of players' intentions and director's subjective judgement. Too often, rulings balance on a director's whim. Bridge-rules urgently need drastic simplification, clarification, and unification. The rules should be less concerned with nebulous "Equity" and more focussed on deterrence (especially in the circumstances of the current cheating pandemic). Law-makers should try to frame a game that players can understand and enjoy. Rather than provide intriguing "Secretary bird" puzzles for directors.
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#66 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 12:06

View Postnige1, on 2021-July-26, 11:14, said:

IMO it does matter what the players say. But Pilowsky is still right. Bridge-law seems unnecessarily dependent on interpretation of players' intentions and director's subjective judgement. Too often, rulings balance on a director's whim. Bridge-rules urgently need drastic simplification, clarification, and unification. The rules should be less concerned with nebulous "Equity" and more focussed on deterrence (especially in the circumstances of the current cheating pandemic). Law-makers should try to frame a game that players can understand and enjoy. Rather than provide intriguing "Secretary bird" puzzles for directors.

It sure matters what the players say, and the laws require the Director to take into consideration also what the players said when making his judgement (whether itr is subjective or objective).

About simplification of the laws? Around 100 years ago the laws on Bridge were extremely simple and easy to apply: In the case of an irreguarity the offended side could simply request a redeal, i.e. that the board was cancelled (understood that the ante on that board was forfeited for the offending side).

Obviously a simplification, but for better or for worse?
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#67 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-July-26, 12:50

I was perhaps a bit brusque with my last.

Self-serving testimony will be treated as all self-serving testimony; as evidence, with a known bias in favour of the speaker. That will be combined with the rest of the evidence available, and compared to the text of the Law (73E1, potentially 74B7-as-example), and a ruling based on the proponderance of the evidence will be provided.

"This is what I say happened, and you can't prove otherwise", however, definitely meets "we don't have to. We just have to determine where the total of the evidence lies." After all, it's not a life-changing (or -ending) experience. It's a ruling in a game.
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#68 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 02:19

View Postnige1, on 2021-July-26, 11:14, said:

IMO it does matter what the players say. But Pilowsky is still right. Bridge-law seems unnecessarily dependent on interpretation of players' intentions and director's subjective judgement. Too often, rulings balance on a director's whim. Bridge-rules urgently need drastic simplification, clarification, and unification. The rules should be less concerned with nebulous "Equity" and more focussed on deterrence (especially in the circumstances of the current cheating pandemic). Law-makers should try to frame a game that players can understand and enjoy. Rather than provide intriguing "Secretary bird" puzzles for directors.

Here we go again. Why don’t you come up with a proposal? The WBFLC will ask for these in a couple of years. But don’t claim that the players will be enthusiastic about it. The revoke laws were simplified some decades ago and even further in 2007, but more often than not players feel disadvantaged by them. “Why give them a trick for free that they couldn’t have made anyway?” or some remark about being not compensated enough. How would you simplify contested claims? By forbidding claims? If someone claims that there was UI, rule that there was UI?
There seldom are “Secretary bird” rulings, the North London Club being an exemption. And is there really so much cheating going on? Or is it that these cases get a lot of exposure? Anyway, to stop cheating you have to change to full digital bridge with camera surveillance. I don’t think that there will be many players left. I would certainly look for entertainment elsewhere.
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#69 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 06:18

View Postsanst, on 2021-July-27, 02:19, said:

... How would you simplify contested claims? ...


I observe that bridge is filled with wonderful complexities. Claims are considerably more complex necessitating very complex remedies when they aren't perfect... and even when they are.
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#70 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 06:20

View Postsanst, on 2021-July-27, 02:19, said:

Here we go again. Why don’t you come up with a proposal? The WBFLC will ask for these in a couple of years. But don’t claim that the players will be enthusiastic about it. The revoke laws were simplified some decades ago and even further in 2007, but more often than not players feel disadvantaged by them. “Why give them a trick for free that they couldn’t have made anyway?” or some remark about being not compensated enough. How would you simplify contested claims? By forbidding claims? If someone claims that there was UI, rule that there was UI?
There seldom are “Secretary bird” rulings, the North London Club being an exemption. And is there really so much cheating going on? Or is it that these cases get a lot of exposure? Anyway, to stop cheating you have to change to full digital bridge with camera surveillance. I don’t think that there will be many players left. I would certainly look for entertainment elsewhere.

Nige1 has repeatedly posted here sensible suggestions for handling claims.
In my experience, revokes are not contentious and also very rare, probably because they are one of the few infractions which cost anything to the offender under current laws.
The move to digital bridge is underway and irreversible, like it or not. This eliminates a lot of rule problems (both inherent and self-afflicted) but creates new ones which WBF is not addressing (others will, of course).
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#71 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 07:37

View Postpescetom, on 2021-July-27, 06:20, said:

The move to digital bridge is underway and irreversible, like it or not.

And it will finish bridge as a social game. Brige, as many sports, can only exist because there are many playing it as a pastime and an opportunity to meet friends. Digital bridge doesn’t offer that opportunity and is far less popular than the physical game. The Dutch bridge union has done what it could to lure the members of the clubs to digital bridge, including free membership of the union’s online bridge club Stepbridge. But the majority of the members didn’t join that club and all are hoping that physical bridge will be possible again in September. Digital bridge might be the future at the top, although I know that the Dutch internationals see it more as a possibility to stay in shape and ‘meet’ their colleagues from other countries, and that they hope to play physical bridge ASAP, which most if not all prefer.
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#72 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 15:40

What I'm hoping for is a combination where computers replace cards at face to face Clubs.
That way, everyone gets to sit comfortably wherever they want, and the Director can be anywhere.
Pre-pandemic, I had an offer from a local restaurant to host such a game using Stepbridge as the platform.
This is not a new concept - younger people have been doing it for decades - https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/LAN_party


When you say "the majority", I am surprised.
In Australia, computer Bridge is easily the biggest game in town in terms of both the numbers of tables playing and the people involved.
BBO, Stepbridge, BriJ, Funbridge and many others.
I suspect when you say the "majority", you are talking about the small number of people that prefer face to face.
The majority of people that play online prefer online - and there are more of us.
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#73 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 16:09

View Postpescetom, on 2021-July-27, 06:20, said:

The move to digital bridge is underway and irreversible, like it or not.

I'm not sure it is. Our club's experience during the pandemic was interesting. Like all clubs, we started off by moving games online in March last year. These were quite well attended at the start, but settled in at about 50% of previous face-to-face table numbers. By December, a small number of face-to-face sessions restarted but we kept hosting BBO games, and started using RealBridge as well. The BBO sessions (which did not conflict with the live games) very quickly died. RealBridge went for a month or two longer, but there was little interest in those either. All this was despite the logistics of the face-to-face sessions being very clunky and not a good experience. Now that we are back to something close to "normal", table numbers are about 120% what they were before.

In short, we have lost very few players to digital bridge. In fact we have gained a bunch of players (about 100 more) from another club in town which closed last year, and they came to us rather than to online bridge. Anecdotal discussions suggest people see online bridge as a poor substitute, and this is backed up by people's patterns of play.

If you want an example from higher level play, simply go look at the numbers for the monthly Reynolds events. Current numbers about half what they were last year.

So where is the move to digital bridge underway?
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#74 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-July-27, 16:42

View Postsanst, on 2021-July-27, 07:37, said:

And it will finish bridge as a social game. Brige, as many sports, can only exist because there are many playing it as a pastime and an opportunity to meet friends. Digital bridge doesn't offer that opportunity and is far less popular than the physical game. The Dutch bridge union has done what it could to lure the members of the clubs to digital bridge, including free membership of the union's online bridge club Stepbridge. But the majority of the members didn't join that club and all are hoping that physical bridge will be possible again in September. Digital bridge might be the future at the top, although I know that the Dutch internationals see it more as a possibility to stay in shape and 'meet' their colleagues from other countries, and that they hope to play physical bridge ASAP, which most if not all prefer.
I like f2f bridge but find the on-line game more convenient. On-line Bridge-rules make Bridge more enjoyable. Examples abound. We have eliminated many opportunities for mechanical error. On-line claim-law is simpler, encourages claims and speeds up the game. There are fewer opportunities for use of UI and other popular cheating methods (and these could easily be further reduced). Cheating is easier to detect and demonstrate. Bridge rules urgently need still more simplification, clarification, and defragmentation, to cope with the cheating pandemic exposed by the on-line environment. Unfortunately, the WBF, NBOs, and some professionals remain in obstinate denial.
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#75 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-July-28, 15:05

View Postsfi, on 2021-July-27, 16:09, said:

I'm not sure it is. Our club's experience during the pandemic was interesting. Like all clubs, we started off by moving games online in March last year. These were quite well attended at the start, but settled in at about 50% of previous face-to-face table numbers. By December, a small number of face-to-face sessions restarted but we kept hosting BBO games, and started using RealBridge as well. The BBO sessions (which did not conflict with the live games) very quickly died. RealBridge went for a month or two longer, but there was little interest in those either. All this was despite the logistics of the face-to-face sessions being very clunky and not a good experience. Now that we are back to something close to "normal", table numbers are about 120% what they were before.

In short, we have lost very few players to digital bridge. In fact we have gained a bunch of players (about 100 more) from another club in town which closed last year, and they came to us rather than to online bridge. Anecdotal discussions suggest people see online bridge as a poor substitute, and this is backed up by people's patterns of play.

If you want an example from higher level play, simply go look at the numbers for the monthly Reynolds events. Current numbers about half what they were last year.

So where is the move to digital bridge underway?


Above all at international level, see WBF plans for high level competition in the next year.
The players may or not love it, for various reasons, but they are almost all going to play digitally.

But also at national/club level in North America and UK, from what I read on bridgewinners and the EBU site.

Getting down to more direct experience, here in Italy the number of players online has doubled, the number of players in face to face federal events is one quarter of pre-covid.
The national federation has lost one third of members in a year and is still obstinately dedicated to restoring face to face, even announcing the intention to close down simultaneous tournaments online in September, before the national laws make them practical indoors in typical locations.
Even in the South of Italy where playing outdoors is practical, only a fraction of players have returned to play f2f: simultaneous tournaments that up to two years ago attracted 14 tables are currently alternating between playing with 4-5 tables or cancelling due to lack of interest.
Fear of infection is only a small part of this, the players are mainly old but also dual vaccinated.
I asked one spritely 80yo lady why she had not participated and she told me candidly that she found better bridge online and was enjoying the Olympics.
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#76 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-28, 15:57

View Postpescetom, on 2021-July-28, 15:05, said:


I asked one spritely 80yo lady why she had not participated and she told me candidly that she found better bridge online and was enjoying the Olympics.


80 sounds like a callow youth in Bridge circles. Did you ask any of the older Bridge players in your club?
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#77 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-July-31, 11:37

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-July-28, 15:57, said:

80 sounds like a callow youth in Bridge circles. Did you ask any of the older Bridge players in your club?

Not my own club, which has not yet returned to playing in presence and cannot do so until the current minimum of 12 square metres per person is relaxed (or huge temporary premises are sought).

I don't think we have any 90 year olds either. The average is well over 70, though.
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