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Simple rebids Just how strong are they?

Poll: 1D-1S; ? (8 member(s) have cast votes)

What is the range for a 3D rebid?

  1. 18+ (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. 16+ (1 votes [12.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  3. 15-17 (3 votes [37.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.50%

  4. Other (4 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

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#1 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 03:08

With silent opponents you open 1 and partner responds 1. Holding long diamonds, what is the strength cutoff for 2 versus 3? I always thought it was around a certain HCP and/or playing strength, but was recently told that not only are there other options, but in fact the one I thought was standard, isn't. Feel free to smuggle a point at the edges if you think it appropriate.
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#2 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 04:34

In standardI use an MLT cut-off of 6 for a rebid at the 3-level. HCP wise this should be 16/17 with 6 or lower with extra length.
With 2-2 in the Majors I consider a NT rebid favouring 2m with weaker honours
With 3 in the major and an unbalanced hand I make the raise especially with an honour
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 05:04

It's more to do with playing tricks and texture. AQJ10xx and an AK is an easy 3 KJx, Qx, KJ8xxx, AQ is not in my book (I'd rebid 1N with the second over 1 or open it 1N if playing strong)
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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 05:55

An average 17+ for me, but weaker with solidity and controls.
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#5 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 07:51

SA used to use 16-18 as the standard range for a jump rebid. But keep in mind SA was a way to teach basic bidding to the masses so the ranges were determined in combination with the teaching of 26 HCP needed for game. Also, an original 16-18 NT.
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#6 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 08:08

Basically the playing strength of a strong NT, which would make it 15/16-17/18 with a 6 carder.
The important thing, it is for sure limited, i.e. 18+ it is not, and the 16+ option is missing
the upper bound.
Now you will treat some 15 counts as too weak, and you will force to game with some 18 counts.

If I would teach beginners, I would go with the 15-17 range, more precise, it showes the strong
NT range.
Similar I would say, that a Reverse showes at least the strength of a strong NT, i.e. 15+ and 54
shape, looking at the MikeH reverse primer this would put me in the "light" reverse camp.
.............
In the past this was simpler, the strong NT used to be 16-18.

PS: The version 18+ exists, but is certainly not a tool that should be used by N/B players.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 08:39

3 is passable, so that puts a maximum on it.
3 wants to go to game opposite a useful minimum, so there's the bottom end.

As others are saying, Walrusing is as helpful as it always is (6 tricks opposite xx and half-stoppers, or one solid stopper like Cyberyeti's example, should be fine), but around "good 16, 17 to 19" sounds about right.

Which means in standard or 2/1 "nearly unlimited 1 bids" systems, 1m-1x; 2m needs to be raised with the kind of good or improved minimum that will make game opposite a hand not strong enough to say "go on with a minimum that hasn't been downgraded by the auction". If it turns out you opened with a crappy 12-and-6 this time, well, you're probably going down in 3; but that's better than strings of 150s and 130s-that-should-be-400s. Chalk one up for limited opener systems.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 08:44


DavidKok' With silent opponents you open 1 and partner responds 1. Holding long diamonds, what is the strength cutoff for 2 versus 3? I always thought it was around a certain HCP and/or playing strength, but was recently told that not only are there other options, but in fact the one I thought was standard, isn't. Feel free to smuggle a point at the edges if you think it appropriate.'
++++++++++++++++++++
We try to use our judgement.
Assuming Matchpoints 2/1,
Rebid 3 with a 6+ card suit and 7-8 winners (about 4-5 losers).


With 3-card support and upper-range or better,
Jump in a new suit or manufacture a reverse.

With a solid 7 card suit, you can rebid 3N


With a good 6 card suit, consider 2N


With 4-card support for partner and a shortage.
Splinter.

With 4-card support for partner and a good suit
double-jump rebid your suit,

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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 09:42

I learned "16-18" "points" from multiple beginner bridge books, but including points for distribution, not just HCP. So probably 14+-17 hcp on average. At the low end, I am evaluating based on the diamond suit quality/length; 14+-15- will bid only 2d with a mediocre diamond suit. I will promote a bit more with like a solid 7 bagger.

Also on many of the 6322s I will select a 1nt opening to begin with on some of them playing a strong NT, ones with worse main suit and more doubleton honors

At the high end, basically I'll jump rebid 3nt or jump shift/reverse with something where I want to be in game opposite 6-7 random hcp.
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-October-28, 15:09

As others have said, there are a number of factors one should consider.

Obviously one needs 6+ in the suit.

One should consider suit quality. Kxxxxx isn’t going to cut it even with a 16 count…I’ll discuss solutions to that issue below. Fortunately when almost half our hand is in our suit, the odds are that we have a reasonably strong holding.

Suit quality is important because partner will look, amongst other things, at his degree of support when choosing where to aim…be it passing, bidding or exploring for a thin 3N, or looking for a high level diamond contract

For example, he’ll usually bid on the assumption that Qx in diamonds will usually give an excellent play for 6 diamond tricks (for notrump) or no trump losers (for a higher diamond contract)

I’d also look at opener’s degree of fit for responder’s suit.

With that in mind, I’d bid 3D on good 15 counts, on the low end, but not on all 16 counts….though I’d almost surely do something other than 2D.

Back in the day, quite a few players would bid 1D 1S 2C on hands too good for 2D and not suitable, usually for suit texture reasons, for 3D. Al Roth, famous for this type of ‘mark time’ bid, would qualify such calls (when made in the highly influential MSC published by The Bridge World’) with the phrase: ‘if I get by this round…’

I still like the treatment,,probably because neither I nor my partners have tried Gazilli.

That’s one ‘solution’ to the rebid problem with a borderline hand with poor suit quality.

The other is to open 1N. I’m truly not a fan of 1N with a 6 card suit, but give me say, Kx AJx Qxxxxx AQ and what else is there, assuming a 15-17 1N?

As for the upper limit, it’s a non-forcing call, as has been pointed out above)

However, bidding is sometimes a choice between unsatisfactory actions.

If you require 6hcp to respond to 1D (which I don’t think would be remotely standard for experienced players…passing, say, KJxxx xxx xx xxx is losing bridge, imo) then one shouldn’t have as much as 18 hcp.

For me, I might do it with a terrible 18 but only if that poor call was better than the alternatives, the obvious one being 2N.

So I’d say 15-17 but I’d have thought about all these factors, and what I’m going to do over partner’s 1 level response, before opening….such thought might get me to choose 1N as discussed above.

Btw, I don’t count points for distribution. In fact, I never count points for shape. That’s not at all the same as saying I don’t value shape…I just don’t see the benefit in using an arithmetical approach to this aspect of hand evaluation. So when I refer to points, in this discussion, I am referring to hcp.

Shape or lack thereof or degree of fit for partner are factors that cause me to ‘like’ or ‘dislike’ my hand, to varying degrees. I bid aggressively with hands I like and conservatively with hands I dislike, always subject to appreciating when the auction warrants changing my view of the hand (for example, if I’m short in partner’s first suit, I tend not to like that, but his later actions may make me very enthusiastic despite an initially negative reaction).
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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-29, 05:49

View Postnige1, on 2021-October-28, 08:44, said:


DavidKok' With silent opponents you open 1 and partner responds 1. Holding long diamonds, what is the strength cutoff for 2 versus 3? I always thought it was around a certain HCP and/or playing strength, but was recently told that not only are there other options, but in fact the one I thought was standard, isn't. Feel free to smuggle a point at the edges if you think it appropriate.'
++++++++++++++++++++
We try to use our judgement.
Assuming Matchpoints 2/1,
Rebid 3 with a 6+ card suit and 7-8 winners (about 4-5 losers).


With 3-card support and upper-range or better,
Jump in a new suit or manufacture a reverse.

With a solid 7 card suit, you can rebid 3N


With a good 6 card suit, consider 2N


With 4-card support for partner and a shortage.
Splinter.

With 4-card support for partner and a good suit
double-jump rebid your suit,



All but the first hand have more than 13 cards so the first thing to do is call the director :D .

A jump rebid, which is non-forcing, shows a hand that is not strong enough for game opposite a mimimum (5-7 HCP) response, but is strong enough to play at the three level opposite a minimum with no support. This puts it in the 15-17, maybe bad 18 or very good 14 HCP, the hand can generate about 6-7 tricks on its own. Given you could be passed, the suit should have some quality (i.e. not Jxxxxx if possible), so with a weak 5-6 carder and no top honors it is probably best to find another bid to get the strength across, such as a NT rebid if that fits your 1NT opening, or open 1NT in the first place if playing a strong NT.
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#12 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-October-29, 05:57

View Postmikeh, on 2021-October-28, 15:09, said:

If you require 6hcp to respond to 1D (which I don’t think would be remotely standard for experienced players…passing, say, KJxxx xxx xx xxx is losing bridge, imo) then one shouldn’t have as much as 18 hcp.


Does that apply if you are playing a system that can show strong Acol 2 hands? I can see this being the case if you are playing 2 as the only strong bid and at least some of the strong Acol 2 hands have to be opened at the one level. If you are playing something like Benji Acol and you respond 1 to 1m with your example hand, sods law says partner bids 2NT which is unlikely to be a success. If the spade suit was six cards, it would be less risky because over 2NT responder can bid 4 which is more likely to make.
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#13 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2021-October-29, 09:12

View PostAL78, on 2021-October-29, 05:57, said:

Does that apply if you are playing a system that can show strong Acol 2 hands? I can see this being the case if you are playing 2 as the only strong bid and at least some of the strong Acol 2 hands have to be opened at the one level. If you are playing something like Benji Acol and you respond 1 to 1m with your example hand, sods law says partner bids 2NT which is unlikely to be a success. If the spade suit was six cards, it would be less risky because over 2NT responder can bid 4 which is more likely to make.


Yes, it applies pretty much to any 5 card major system. It applies even playing Precision, when partner is limited to 15 or 16.

It's likely that spades will play better than diamonds. You might have a 9 card spade fit and a 5 card diamond fit.

Also, when you pass, it gives opponents bidding room and information. It waves a white flag in the air and tells opponents to come in. That's pretty much always bad.

Yes there is the substantial risk partner jumps to 2N. You might survive that. Even if you go down, -50 or -100 is likely to be a good score, because opponents are pretty likely to make something if you can't make 2N.

Remember - half the time the opponents have the hand, and you have to make it as difficult for them to bid their hand as possible.
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