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Ukraine

#41 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2022-March-09, 18:13

I'm trying to brush up on my knowledge of the Kyivan Rus and the birth of Russia

I imagine its all propaganda

I think Mrs Bailey needs to be dealt with

World History with Mrs Bailey

Another interesting piece of trivia looking at the area covered (at some time) by the Kyivan Rus is that the White Sea is at the top and the Black Sea at the bottom.
And to other interests apparently the Black is at the top and the Red at the bottom. And some people just call it the Sea. Wikiversity :)
Which explains some different colourings on chess boards perhaps

But I am not happy at those cheering on World War 3. Not after what happened last time. The people of the world deserve a break. Those who leave others alone do

Another thing that crosses my mind is the fairly recent history in that region of those who subscribe to constant conflict. Give us a break. I know its meant to be progressive and good for us all
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#42 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-March-10, 10:05

Adam Tooze said:

In the urgency of the present, our thinking about Ukraine is drawn to the immediate past. We place the current crisis against the backdrop of the “Maidan revolution” of 2013-2014, or the first escalation of tension with Russia in 2007-2008, or the orange revolution of 2004. We go back to the fateful negotiations between 1991 and 1994 over the end of the Soviet Union and Ukraine’s nuclear weapons between.

But the history of the Ukrainian nation state in its modern form is older than that. The first Ukrainian nation state to achieve international recognition emerged out of the first great crisis of the Russian empire in 1917-1918. It was solemnified by the Treaty concluded on 9-10 February 1918 by a youthful group of representatives of the Ukrainian parliament, the Rada (which had constituted itself in the course of the 1917 revolution), and the central powers - Imperial Germany, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire.

https://adamtooze.su...VtSITTYDtsg&s=r

What do I take from this episode for an understanding of the present?

Ukraine has long been one of the fulcrums of Eurasian history.

Its history is distinct from but willy-nilly tied to that of Russia.

It history is shaped by the violent play of forces between Russia, Europe (Germany) and wider global empires (British Empire, US).

That play of forces can be crushing, but it can also, in surprising ways, empower Ukrainian actors, who have repeatedly shown their capacity to exploit historic opportunities.

Any far-sighted and realistic vision of order in Europe, including Eastern Europe must reckon with the force of self-determination.

Sovereignty has an economic foundation.

Simple coercive extraction is extremely expensive and not likely to be a good strategy of power.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#43 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-March-10, 15:31

Not surprisingly (to me) I had never heard the Feb 10, 1918 treaty he is speaking of. Even less surprisingly, I find it to be a challenge to make a lot of sense of what he is saying.
Not at all a criticism of Adam Tooze.
I might well put some time into seeing what I can make of it. I doubt I will be ready for an oral exam on the subject any time soon.
So thanks. I mean that.
Ken
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#44 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-March-10, 16:30

Nothing much wrong with that, but in European terms going back one century is little better than only knowing the opening lead.
Poland and Austria-Hungary both dominated Ukraine in the previous centuries and formed the national culture which is anything but subservient to Russia, even after half a century of obligatory russian language and programs in schools.
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#45 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-March-11, 15:30

Ezra Klein and Masha Gessen discuss what people living in Russia know and don't know about what's going on:

https://www.nytimes....sha-gessen.html
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#46 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-March-11, 15:59

View Posty66, on 2022-March-11, 15:30, said:

Ezra Klein and Masha Gessen discuss what people living in Russia know and don't know about what's going on:

https://www.nytimes....sha-gessen.html


Anecdotally from my friend in Moscow.

Over the 8 years before the war lots of reports of atrocities by the Ukrainians against Donbass.

Zelensky is regarded as a Nazi.

She is too afraid to use Putin's name on discord (which is how we communicate) for fear it's being monitored.
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#47 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2022-March-11, 19:10

Without wanting to appear like a propagandist its going to very painful for a lot of people everywhere who don't deserve it

This is a just a few of those who will be hurt according to a propaganda rag

RT.com Beware propaganda


It doesn't even mention all those about to suffer food shortages etc

Given past history squeezing Russia takes a long time and doesn't work

I forgot. Reportedly 10s thousands of foreign fighters going to fight on both sides. Many of those joining the Russians are anti-ISIL types etc
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#48 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-March-12, 09:22

View PostCyberyeti, on 2022-March-11, 15:59, said:

Zelensky is regarded as a Nazi.

Everyone is scared of the Jewish Nazis conquering the world...
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#49 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-March-12, 09:55

View PostGilithin, on 2022-March-12, 09:22, said:

Everyone is scared of the Jewish Nazis conquering the world...


This was effectively my response to her.

Ukraine has always had issues with racism etc (look at the stories of the African doctors being treated badly at the border as they try to leave), but Zelensky doesn't seem to be part of this
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#50 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-March-12, 16:20

View PostCyberyeti, on 2022-March-12, 09:55, said:

Ukraine has always had issues with racism etc (look at the stories of the African doctors being treated badly at the border as they try to leave), but Zelensky doesn't seem to be part of this


Northern Italy has a significant quota of Ukrainian immigrants who quickly integrated and established a reputation as honest hard working people. Those I know have a high opinion of Zelensky, having seen standards of living back home rise dramatically under his rule.
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#51 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2022-March-12, 21:43

I don't really know what to think of what is going on but when a leader is happy to fight until his whole country, city and people are wiped off the planet you start to ask questions

I do admire standing up to bullies but it is not often the best survival strategy
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#52 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-March-12, 23:31

It didn't work well for the indigenous people of Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, Australia etc etc etc.
It sort of worked out for people in Vietnam, New Zealand, India, the Phillipines and South Africa.

The complexity in Ukraine includes the fact that there is essentially a "Russian half" on the East side of the river and another group on the West side of the river.
Neither side really wants to go back to Soviet-era black-and-white television production quotas.
Where you can fall in love with "Girl from tractor factory with good socialist mind."

There's a 1 minute intro before the song - skip over it.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#53 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-March-13, 08:19

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-March-12, 23:31, said:

It didn't work well for the indigenous people of Canada, the USA, Mexico, Brazil, Australia etc etc etc.
It sort of worked out for people in Vietnam, New Zealand, India, the Phillipines and South Africa.

The complexity in Ukraine includes the fact that there is essentially a "Russian half" on the East side of the river and another group on the West side of the river.
Neither side really wants to go back to Soviet-era black-and-white television production quotas.
Where you can fall in love with "Girl from tractor factory with good socialist mind."

There's a 1 minute intro before the song - skip over it.


I was fine with the one minute intro.

If I stay on this thread long enough I might learn a few things.
I went to https://en.wikipedia...ugene_H%C3%BCtz for help.

If I have this right, Nick Gogol is really Eugene Hutz, he started the band Hurts and the Bela Bartoks but changed it to the Gogol Bordello after, as he puts it, realizing that "nobody knows who the hell Béla Bartók is in the United States." Not that I am all that familiar with Gogol either but I guess most of us know what a Bordello is. Not from direct personal experience of course.

Anyway, thanks. Thanks for the song, the band, the general reference etc.

Ken
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#54 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-March-13, 14:29

View Postkenberg, on 2022-March-13, 08:19, said:

I was fine with the one minute intro.

If I stay on this thread long enough I might learn a few things.
I went to https://en.wikipedia...ugene_H%C3%BCtz for help.

If I have this right, Nick Gogol is really Eugene Hutz, he started the band Hurts and the Bela Bartoks but changed it to the Gogol Bordello after, as he puts it, realizing that "nobody knows who the hell Béla Bartók is in the United States." Not that I am all that familiar with Gogol either but I guess most of us know what a Bordello is. Not from direct personal experience of course.

Anyway, thanks. Thanks for the song, the band, the general reference etc.


For some reason "tractor factory" sat with me as an earworm over the last 45 years.
It only popped up again on youtube very recently and hasn't had the airing it deserved.
According to the notes under the song it came from a group of Adelaide arty types in the 1970's (which explains why it had airplay there when I was a teenager).
Here's one of their references.
Hope you enjoyed it.


non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
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#55 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2022-March-13, 18:27

I always struggled with some of that pretentious set back in the 80s. Before I arrived in Oz. Thanks for the link

I'm more familiar with the culture of Nikolai Gogol and people he influenced such as Bulgakov, Kafka, and Dostoevsky who I actually understood ( a bit more than Australian art school types - they all showed up round the same time in my consciousness and are still a mystery)

I'm still at a loss what to make of the current terrible mess. I don't like to think I understand complex places at all

I am learning much from the likes of Garry Kasparov who was highly influential/interesting to me as a student Maths undergrad. You could throw in Bobby Fischer if you like (high school) - not that I learn anything about the current situation from the latter - more my interests back then - Bobby Fischers 60 most memorable games etc

When will we know the truth of what ever goes on anywhere

I think back to all the scary rubbish we dealt with when young. These scary people. I see the same again now
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#56 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-March-14, 21:24

Posted Image
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#57 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-March-18, 06:42

Arnold Schwarzenegger said:

I love the Russian people. That is why I have to tell you the truth. Please watch and share.

https://twitter.com/...ideo-putin.html

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#58 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-March-20, 02:53

Another anecdote from my friend on the outskirts of Moscow.

She reports that western feminine hygiene products were very popular and thought to be much better than the Russian ones so the Russian industry was not huge.

She came out of hospital to find none of any origin in the 2 or 3 stores she can walk to.
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#59 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-March-23, 15:09

Quote

In January, the head of a group of serving and retired Russian military officers declared that invading Ukraine would be “pointless and extremely dangerous.” It would kill thousands, he said, make Russians and Ukrainians enemies for life, risk a war with NATO and threaten “the existence of Russia itself as a state.”

To many Russians, that seemed like a far-fetched scenario, since few imagined that an invasion of Ukraine was really possible. But two months later, as Russia’s advance stalls in Ukraine, the prophecy looms large. Reached by phone this week, the retired general who authored the declaration, Leonid Ivashov, said he stood by it, although he could not speak freely given Russia’s wartime censorship: “I do not disavow what I said.”


"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#60 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-March-25, 06:16

Sabrina Tavernise at NYT said:

One day you are driving to the dentist. The next you are whispering with strangers in a dark basement. It is a moment when instinct — to save your children, to get through the next checkpoint — takes over and emotions are blocked. Finally, it is the shocking realization that suddenly, unwillingly, you are a refugee, dependent on the generosity of strangers, no longer a middle-class person in charge of your own life.

https://www.nytimes....896ed87b2d9c72a

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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